Comment

Comment by Jeff on June 29, 2009 at 10:55am

Afghanistan is another sovereign country that never attacked us, threatened us or would have or could have harmed us. It's just as illegal to be there as it is to be in Iraq.

Do you think that if we killed Osama bin Laden we'd pack up and leave Afghanistan? You're really confused. For one, we'll never kill him because he's probably already dead. Secondly, we can't kill him because the excuse to be there would be gone. Sorry, we're not there for bin Laden and we aren't leaving. We're there to secure land for pipelines for multinational corporations and we aren't leaving, ever. You'll see.

Comment by Jeff on June 29, 2009 at 10:47am

Fortunately for me you've joined a web site where not one person believes that Osama bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 solely and most of us believe Benazir Bhutto, who clearly stated in an interview that he's dead.

Sorry soldier, we have even less business in Afghanistan. The argument was made that Iraq was dangerous. No one even attempted to make the argument that Afghanistan was dangerous, because it isn't.

The danger to Americans is a government trying to instill fear in the people in order to limit freedoms while it kills innocent people globally for resources.

Had we not gone to Iraq or Afghansitan almost 5,000 soldiers would be alive. BUT WAIT, it gets much worse. According to the governments own web site, 2.3 million soldiers have died since 2000 and the normal statistical analysis says approximately 1 million should have died. You see, as a result of these Gulf Wars 1.3 million more soldiers have died, healthy people, that died needlessly from a variety of illnesses related to war.

The trade off? 3,000 people died on 9/11.
We've killed 1.2 million Iraqi's, 2.3 million soldiers and we are now involved in permanent war. There are 4 million disabled people related to these wars on several continents. There are millions of children without parents and millions of women without husbands. Step off the high horse. You've done not one thing to protect my freedom or the freedom of other people.

The economy can't survive a minute without these wars. It's what's keeping us afloat. We are living with a war economy. The only product the United States exports effectively is war.

Comment by clamor on June 29, 2009 at 9:25am

"One Last Statement"

I forgot to mention this last night, I wrote you around 1 or 2 in the morning and I was a little tired, had P.T. @ 0630.

It's one thing for a person to not want to go to Iraq. Fighting another man's war, I won't insult your intelligence by naming the individuals. But not wanting to go to Afghanistan, is another thing. A friend of mine and I were just talking about how we no had business going to Iraq after the event's of 9/11. But at the back of our minds we all had the same thought on why we ended up there. Personally, we should have been in Afghanistan the whole time trying to get Bin Laden, period. If he was in Iraq, go to Iraq to get him and nothing.

My friend said this, "It might of taken us a few years, but now we're in track." He was referring to us all go to Afghanistan and making it the main objective.


Before I go, let me ask you and everybody else this, after the events of 9/11. If had did nothing, just sit back stateside recovering, rebuilding, and recuperating would you have been angry at the government for "just sitting around?" I'll be honest with you, after 9/11, I wanted to join, not to kill people or take my anger at someone else, but to help find Osama Bin Laden and have him be trialed for his crimes. If the events of 9/11 never happened, we believe that we wouldn't be debating about a war right now. And that my friend is the bottom line.

Comment by clamor on June 29, 2009 at 8:41am

Dear Jeff,

"In the end, Agosto and Bishop's reasoning matters little to me."

"They're not using me as much as I'm using them."

"People like me see them as martyrs for our cause, even if their motivation is a bit tarnished."

That's all you needed to say. Thank you.

Spc Clamor, 57th ESB, signing out.

Comment by Jeff on June 29, 2009 at 3:21am

I want to address the term 'poor uneducated Iraqi's' because that's not a disparaging remark. I know full well that there are many very well educated Iraqi's. Before we bombed the country into oblivion Saddam had placed a program in affect that provided free education through college for all Iraqi's. Iraq was one of the most advanced Middle Eastern countries, if not the most advanced. We of course insured the destruction of the entire country. However, the poorer Iraqi's with less education make up the majority of the people left in the country today and that's what I was referring to.



You misunderstand. I'm not anti-troop, I'm anti-US government which encompasses being anti-war.

You guys are the clean-up crew and believe me, most of you are not terribly conscious of what it is you're doing. Maybe you yourself are, maybe not. I actually can't make that judgment based on the exchange we've had. Let me use facts to describe the clean-up crew and how it works.

Surely you understand and have some understanding of past US history. Unfortunately much of it is buried under layers of dirt and one has to scrape off the crust to find the truth.

Do you have a complete understanding of the past histories of Marcos, Allende or Pinochet?
How about Trujillo?
Colonel Elías Wessin?
Anastacio Somoza?
General Noriega?
Do you know that Arbenz was replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies killed over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years?
Ngo Dinh Diem?
"Papa Doc" Duvalier and the Tonton Macoutes?
Jose Velasco?
Vice President Carlos Arosemana?
Patrice Lumumba?
Juan Bosch?
Joao Goulart?
General Castelo Branco who created Latin America’s first death squads?
General Suharto who massacred between 500,000 and 1 million civilians?
George Papandreous?
Mobutu Sese Seko?
Do you know who Dan Mitrione is?
Prince Sahounek?
CIA puppet Lon Nol?
Juan Torres?
Hugo Banzer who had over 2,000 political opponents arrested without trial, then tortured, raped and executed?
Prime Minister Edward Whitlam and the Australian CIA coup in 1975?
Did you even know we were involved in a coup in Australia?
Jonas Savimbi?
Roberto D’Aubuisson who had Oscar Romero murdered?
The El Mazote massacre in 1982 in El Salvador?
Battalion 316?
Jean-Bertrand Aristide?

Soldier, this is our history. WE are the terrorists and we don't bring peace and love to other countries. We use covert ops to access resources and if that doesn't work we use bribery and treachery and if that doesn't work we lie and invade. It NEVER works out well for the people in a foreign country we've targeted.

Based on your perspective regarding Saddam, please, please do the research because here's the truth. Saddam might have killed a few hundred people over the past almost 10 years since we deposed and killed him but there are far, far worse regimes. We took out Saddam and killed 1.2 million people, plus another 0.5 million children killed via the embargo's and we destroyed the structure of the country. Everything, roads, museums, hospitals, schools, water, sewer, electrical, local business, chickens, cows, crops, we killed the country, all of it. We even killed the well educated people in Iraq, the leaders.

See, I'm not just anti-war, I'm anti-US government methods. We are friends with Saudi Arabia. Compare it to Iraq and you will understand very quickly that Saudi Arabia is 100 times worse than Iraq ever was BUT they give us what we want by way of resources. Saddam denominated oil in Euro's and had t go. That's the bottom line.

Saudi Arabia. No elections, ever. One religion and none others tolerated. Sharia law is what makes up their Constitution. Women can't drive. No movie theaters. No alcohol allowed. Just compare Saudi Arabia to Iraq. We didn't invade Saudi Arabia, did we?

Sorry, nothing you can possibly say about Saddam Hussein will ever justify the invasion of the country. There are far worse dictators and we love them because they bow down to American hegemony. Saddam stood up to us. That was his only mistake.

As I write this I realize, you just don't know all of the facts. You don't have a grasp of the complete history of this country, how the military works with industry forming the military industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about and how the government works with corporations to dictate foreign policy that reflects the needs of the corporations and not human beings.

In the end, Agosto and Bishop's reasoning matters little to me. The timing is also insignificant. Where these things matter to you they don't to me. They're not using me as much as I'm using them. People like me see them as martyrs for our cause, even if their motivation is a bit tarnished.

Comment by clamor on June 29, 2009 at 2:19am

"Sidetracked From The Original Debate"


Dear Jeff,


Thank you for the apology, highly appreciate it. I "wikied" Saddam Hussein, even though I'm not a big fan of the site. I might be off subject to what you were trying to say about Saddam Hussein, but just because you do good deeds it doesn't allow you to do immoral things, and the Lord judged him. Just because a man builds a playground for the community it doesn't justify him to forcing another parent to supervise his children. Saddam did good things, but the way he did them. Hey, even Hitler himself did good things.

Anyways, before I say anything else, I want to talk about the main subject, which is "There's No Way I'm Going to Deploy to Afghanistan," which is about Spc Agosto and Sgt Bishop going "anti-war." You said that "the timing of their dissent is meaningless. What's important is their dissent," that's where you're wrong. The timing is the key factor here. The anti-war attitude and self revelation of the war came upon "stop-loss." Key word "stop-loss." This is what THIS subject is about, these "soldiers," not going for deployment because its an inconvenience so their future plans as civilians again (i.e. posting it for another year). This is way I'm saying what I'm saying. You people look at them as two people helping your cause, I see two people using a sensitive subject as an advantage. I really didn't want to say that, but you gave me very little option, especially when you keep calling me "delusional" or "not knowing the facts" or "simply have no clue" or, my favorite, "has the appearance of sanity but which is sociopathic parroting." They did GREAT, they found supporters and made them believe what they wanted to hear from them and now they're using you for their cause. Simple as 1 + 1.

Two things before I talk about a sore subject (my opinion of the war):

1. "the poor and uneducated Iraq's," boy do you sound dumb. You say "I'm a well read and intelligent man with a high IQ and a vast intellect," I'm going to say that I took that out of context, because that's just down right pompous. This is the one thing I dislike about American's (I'm Filipino by the way, I was borne in U.S.soil - Saipan ), many of you are quickly to point another countryman's funny dialect and totally ignore the fact that he learned the American language. I'm just going to stop right there.

2. "It turns out obedient and able bodied workers that don't question authority." Greatest advise for EVERYBODY, join for a year, then make your comment. You are in for a very, very rude awakening, and I'm so serious. This is why we soldiers always reply with " you don't REALLY know, unless you're in it."

My opinion of the WAR and many of my fellow servicemen opinion (we [SOLDIERS] all can go on and on about this everyday till we get out). I hate talking about this because it always falls in deaf ears. Anyways, we're done, we did what we set out to do and its time to comeback home and let the people of that nation come together. I agree with everyone, UN said ,"no." We should have waited. Do I think its weird that we captured Saddam instead Osama, of course, mass majority of us do. Do I think Former Pres. Bush looked more and more like a total idiot (which you can't get any lower) when we couldn't find one single "weapon of mass destruction," hell yeah! You can say it, but you don't feel it like we do, when you know that everybody around us is making bank for what we're doing!!!! I worked for months with civilians, who did the same job as me, get more than twice my whole pay check (even after all the extra allowance) bi-weekly in my whole months earning. Why do you think we're annoyed when we get "stop-loss!" We're are not "brainwashed" blood thirsty, robots. Many, many, many of us signed up, and we ALL knew that were headed out to the battlefield. If you're going to back down, do it alone, don't drag other people into it. Don't use other people's emotion. Be a man, if you get court-martial and serve time, face it head on. Don't have other people block your "bullets" when you know they shouldn't be. Have some real courage. It's not like the Army beats you down in a room, then send you to a cave blocked by a boulder. I really hope you don't take people's money. Ive went to many websites that is asking for money, wtf?

So Jeff, don't think were stupid, because were not. Look at it this way, you have two "soldiers" having you (and many others) fight their "war."

My old lady wanted me to say this to you, and it pretty sums many things up. If you want to be anti-war or pro-war, that's all up to you. But support your troops. Because they truly need it when their down range. You saying all these negative things about them, is just beating down someone when they're already down. This war that you guys hate, we're the last people you need to be yelling at. Be anti-war, not anti-troops.

Comment by Jeff on June 28, 2009 at 10:33pm

First, you're right, my comment was a bit crude and even rude. I apologize. Truth is, I didn't think you'd be back. Since you are I would be happy to entertain a dialogue on a somewhat more intellectual level.

I'm tired of people like you that portray the army as something good and as something necessary. It is neither. It once was. Today it is the enforcement arm of the NWO and nothing more. It's designed to maintain hegemony via 1000+ global bases and it's primary job is the suppression of human rights globally. That's what it does and while there are moments of lucidity, like inaugurating a rebuilt park for children in Iraq they pall by comparison to the realities on the ground. You are fighting wars for corporate America, not for my freedom, not for the freedom of Iraqi's or Afghan's, not to spread democracy. You are there so the corporations can profit, that's all.

"why didn't these two soldiers take their stand during deployment?, etc."

The timing of their dissent is meaningless. What's important is their dissent.

"I don't understand why you're so angry"

You're right, I am angry and I don't expect you to understand right now, but someday you will. Everyone grows. I'm angry at people like yourself that probably never read Major General Smedley Butler's "War Is A Racket" and have no business even discussing these subjects until you have. You simply have no clue. You have no clue what Iraq was like before we got there. Go to "Saddam Hussein" in Wikipedia and scroll down to "Modernization Program" and tell me why you weren't aware of the material there? Around the 3rd or 4th paragraph or so. I'm angry because you use a limited knowledge of the overall subject matter to propose an opinion that has the appearance of sanity but which is sociopathic parroting of the governments position. You possess NO empathy. Iraq was a sovereign country soldier. We attacked a sovereign country without provocation as an act of aggressive war. The UN says, CLEARLY, that this is illegal AND punishable by death. Look it up.

"The fact is, you took an oath soldier"

Weave the facts any way you want son, the oath you took is to the Constitution of the United States and that's the oath you're disregarding in it's entirety. You shouldn't be in Iraq, period.

"Tell it to the 1.2 million dead Iraqi's, asshole"

You don't have contact, or have limited contact with the poor and uneducated Iraqi's that are taking the brunt of the murders committed by the people our government has armed to fight against one another. You see that's the way they eliminate a fair portion of the enemy. Create a split, arm both sides and watch them kill each other. That's US Army tactics 101. That still doesn't address the 1.2 million dead, the 0.5 million dead children form the embargo's of the 80s and the future dead from the depleted uranium making it's way through the molecular structure of the water, plants and animals right now.

As for deleting your comment; I have never used censorship and never will. I'm not afraid of you. While you are under some serious delusions I am well aware of the truth and equally I recognize how difficult it is to see. You're probably a young man. You'll wake up one day. Besides, I'm a well read and intelligent man with a high IQ and a vast intellect more than capable of mounting a blistering defense using my extensive knowledge of the facts at hand. I'm the ex-founder and publisher of a fairly well known magazine. Intellectual arguments are what I did for 30 years.

I'd hire Agosto, Bishop and you. That's a no-brainer. The military does do one thing well. It turns out obedient and able bodied workers that don't question authority. I'm sorry you didn't come along sooner. I'm retired and I've sold my business. The three of you would have been great employees.

Comment by clamor on June 28, 2009 at 9:19pm

"In Hopes That You Don't Delete This Comment"

"Dear" Jeff,

I appreciate you insulting my family name so quickly, thank you very much. I also like how you say I'm "a disinformation specialist. You joined this web site not with the intention of being an active member but with the specific intention of disparaging these fine young sodliers." I did just join the website to comment - FREEDOM of SPEECH, like Spc Agosto and Sgt Bishop has. You say I'm "disinformed," but let me ask you this, why didn't these two soldiers take their stand during deployment? Or better yet, after they got back? Why did this whole "anti-war" attitude suddenly came about just when he was "stop-loss?" I will agree with anyone, there are many things I don't like in the Army, but that comes from individuals in the unit, not the Army.

I don't understand why you're so angry (seems like it when I read your comments) with me? I started off the comment with "This isn't an attack on their character," and I didn't. If you can help me out, please pin point exactly where in my comment have I attacked anyone, I just simply asked questions.

"The fact is, you took an oath sodlier, and you have a responsibility to that oath. This is an illegal war." Yes! I do have a responsibility to that oath, and so do they. Reread my comment, the part that starts with "we're 'commo,'" if all else, we have an oath as "commo soldiers" to provide a way of means for our fellow men and women (SOLDIERS) to communicate with friends, family, and whoever.

"Tell it to the 1.2 million dead Iraqi's, asshole" I have, not to the dead, but those I have crossed paths with. I tell them "you're welcome" or "thank you also" when they say thank you or show gratitude for what we are trying to accomplish, or when they shake my hand.

"As the person that posted this editorial I have the right to delete your comment but because I want others to see how weak and how absurd your argument is I'm leaving it right here for the world to see." Well, thank you (again) for leaving this post, many have not allowed it, or it's still pending, I guess. Thank you for saying how "weak and how absurd" my comment (you call it "argument") is. But just to let everyone know, everything I wrote is true to me. It all came from the heart, I guess one could say. Let the world (or anyone who has bummed into this website) see another side of the story (not an "angry diss") from a soldier, who which is in the same unit.

Just to let you know Jeff, my last name is really Clamor and I am currently in the same company as Sgt Bishop. So nothing I have written is false, I'm not trying to hide anything to anyone. Like I said, I didn't intend to comment in this issue, until I saw what they wrote.

Sincerely,
Spc Clamor, 57th ESB aka "a$$hole"

P.S.
I volunteer my Saturday's to Habitat to Humanity, In just this last 8 months I have donated twice to Toys for Tots, and have taken at least four people to Wal-greens and HEB and bought them food (because of the saying," give them something they can't sell to buy alcohol or drugs"). I used to donate to Good Will, but the one we have here in Killeen is the type that resales items, not donate to people in need. So I send them as care packages to my family and relatives who aren't fortunate or struggling. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from being rich, I'm borderline to being broke, but when I can give I will. Better to spend 10 bucks on someone who needs bread, than to waste it in some buffet (I'm chubby right now, need to lose weight), when I can eat at the DFAC for $4.25.

P.S.S. ( I know there isn't such thing)
To those like "Luggnuts" and the many others out there, please don't insult or intelligence by saying things like we're "brainwashed" or "we can't think on our own."
Come into my battalion and boy will you get a rude awakening. Hey you might even see Spc Agosto and Sgt Bishop being outstanding soldiers that you might want to hire them in your workplace after they get out, but if you don't please do tell me why not?

Comment by Jeff on June 28, 2009 at 5:24pm

We haven't been attacked since the 70s when Israel attacked us and before that not since WWII and I see the current US military and all of their objectives as one big Psyops on the peaceful people inhabiting the globe.

Comment by luggnutz on June 28, 2009 at 2:32pm

We need all to stand like this. At this point, it's suicide just staying in the system, forget being a toy soldiering for them. Have a cousin in Afgahnistan, have talked at times on facebook. But he's thouroughly sold on the lyes. He'll only see when it's too late...if he even gets back. But hardest part about them, they get pushed and brainwashed that they have no fear. Fear feeds them, cloths them, gives them a purpose. After being told and sold it must be hard fought and bloody, most prides can't take that the solution is peaceful, uneventfull, and EASY....SIMPLE.........NO FIGHT.....NO FEAR.....LOVE_SHARE_ENJOY!

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