Comment

Comment by Marklar on August 3, 2009 at 12:46pm

As I said the author is a Christian himself or a Catholic (as if the distinction really matters to anyone else). I really think if you read the full article you should that it is meant as a call to action, really for increased action, rather than as bashing. Constructive criticism should be welcomed.

Comment by leilei on August 3, 2009 at 11:22am

I agree with you, Tara. You wrote, "If I have learned anything from the New Testament is that we must love each other as we would love ourselves!" ---> You are so right, Tara. I honestly believe, though, that many Christians wish that Jesus had said to "love others who are like ourselves"--many act as if He actually did.

T) "If Jesus were alive today what would he think about torture being tortured himself? Would he turn a blind eye to it or would he be in the forefront crying out for justice and humanity?" ---> I think that if Jesus were alive today many Christians would crucify Him again!

T) "The fundamentals of being a christian is becoming christ-like! Unfortunately, I have not met many people that call themselves christians following in the light of truth, compassion, love, acceptance, tolerance, understanding, wisdom, ect.... that Jesus teached." ---> You nailed it!

Comment by Tara on August 2, 2009 at 6:23pm

The fundamentals of being a christian is becoming christ-like! Unfortunately, I have not met many people that call themselves christians following in the light of truth, compassion, love, acceptance, tolerance, understanding, wisdom, ect.... that Jesus teached.

If Jesus were alive today what would he think about torture being tortured himself? Would he turn a blind eye to it or would he be in the forefront crying out for justice and humanity? If I have learned anything from the New Testament is that we must love each other as we would love ourselves! I guess these so-called religious folks don't like themselves much or they would never condone such atrocities! It seems the pages of history again turn and the realities that are happening today are the realities that happened back then! When will humans ever learn?????

Comment by Marklar on August 2, 2009 at 6:07pm

,... and I do appreciated their efforts, every bit helps.

Comment by Marklar on August 2, 2009 at 6:03pm

The "powerful Quaker lobby" was sarcasm Tweek, didn't mean that you implied they were, just that despite their numbers the fact that they are not rich and somewhat outside of the mainstream means that they may be less effective at swaying others than a similar number of people that are more mainstream and have more money. Doesn't mean that it's right for that to be so either, but that's just how it works right now.

Comment by Marklar on August 2, 2009 at 5:53pm

"That's not true Zen and as I know your sister a little thanks to you I know you know better. The catholic church has a long bloody history. There is a difference."

Not true Tweek. I know many people who have been tortured by protestant Christians and even you must have heard of the many children who have been murdered via protestant excorcism rituals. People often make the same distinction in regards to child abuse but protestant churches had their own child sex scandals in the early eighties (mostly baptist denominations if I remember correctly) that were nearly as extensive and wide spread as the more recent scandals in the Catholic church.

One friend of mine was locked in a closet for days at a time and went through three exorcisms as a small child and not by Catholics.

The whole point of posting the article was to encourage those who are church goers to act within that system to change such attitudes from within rather than to put down christianity. The church can be a great force for political change not because of it's overblown claims of cornering the market on morality but because it is already ORGANIZED and doesn't need to build organization and infrastructure from scratch.

The question is why isn't it, or more accurately why isn't a larger segment of it's population. We all know some of the answers to that and they are many (such as those 18,000 preachers drafted by the feds to preach government subservience). If that 54% could be reduced to 40% or less, however, the tide might begin to turn in a big way, maybe even to the point of seeing big boy legal actions against big boy war criminals.

So if you are a church goer, back your damned preacher into a corner and relieve him of any ambivalence he may have on the subject of including regular anti-torture themes in his sermons. Just a thought.

Comment by Marklar on August 2, 2009 at 4:46pm

I know, on both counts.

Even 54% leaves a large number who disapprove.

Ray McGovern is always a good read though and brings a thoughtful perspective (to some extent) on why this should be so. Ray is Catholic however and even he glosses over the third population referenced in the study. Those dreaded immoral atheists who approved of 'torture in some cases' at a minuscule 5%. The point being that the authoritarian aspects of religion don't necessarily lead to a moral society. At times quite the opposite is true.

I'm not sure the powerful Quaker lobby is gonna put the fear into many politicians. Some aspects of the anti-industrial Quaker philosophy are cool but it kinda leaves them without a lot of cash for DC lobbyists no matter how many of them there are doesn't it?

Comment by Zensaber on August 2, 2009 at 4:24pm

Organized religion are just like the banks, they give people what the people think they need and then gain wealth and power off of it. I have read some really messed up stuff about the organized Christian off branches in the USA. Although, remember Christianity has a long bloody history of torture and killing.