Identifying and Detecting Cognitive Infiltration
Cass Suntein, President Obama's regulatory czar, recommended "cognitive infiltration of extremist groups."
I have news for you, this has been happening for at least 6 years on the web, perhaps longer. My experience on message boards is perhaps more extensive than any other truth seeker. If we 9-11 truth seekers are "extremists", how do we detect infiltrators if they are present?
I've learned how this is done. It is actually something junior high school debate teams could achieve easily once the parameters are understood. Just like by the very nature of what the "cognitive infiltrators" have to work with is about on the same level.
I have had a huge advantage here because I actually know exactly, in general terms, how the Twin Towers were constructed. I viewed a 2 hour documentary in 1990 titled "The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers" that aired nationwide on PBS. I work in construction, have been a welder for 35 years and have also worked as a driller for a blaster on "above ground" blasting projects for road building. I almost attempted to gain the OJT needed to get my BATF blasting license, then decided construction was waning generally.
That advantage is having accurate information about the Twins that can be used to test a group with for infiltrators. My information is absolutely consistent with all evidence. Any one who is in construction knowing of steel and concrete can confirm this consistency.
The average truth seeker is at a major disadvantage because they do not know what is correct or not correct. If they know construction they can determine what is correct once they see it, but before that they do not know.
What I encountered was made a little more difficult because no one had come out and said, like Sunstein, that infiltration's were recommended. I had to determine by behaviors what constituted "cognitive" or exactly how the term was applied to a specific "infiltration". How it was carried out by whomever might be doing it, what it looked like.
Another aspect of the infiltration that was not readily obvious, but became so fairly quickly, was that the infiltration utilized social fears. These are the primary tools of the infiltrators.
A) Ridicule
B) False agreement
C) Social castigation
A more sophisticated and generically related tool is "cognitive distortions". Behavioral psychologists have a list of these that they use in defining when and where therapy needs to be applied to correct erroneous thinking in a patient. Erroneous thinking can, over periods of time, cause people to alienate themselves from others and interfere with the life experience significantly. Here is a list that has been slightly modified to more easily show how it can be applied by others in writing or speaking to distort your perceptions and thoughts.
1) All or nothing thinking: Things are placed in black or white categories.
2) Over generalization: Single event is viewed as continuous.
3) Mental filter: Details in life (positive or negative) are amplified in importance while opposite is rejected.
4) Minimizing: Perceiving one or opposite experiences (positive or negative) as absolute and maintaining singularity of belief to one or the other.
5) Mind reading: One absolutely concludes that others are reacting positively or negatively without investigating reality.
6) Fortune Telling: Based on previous 5 distortions, anticipation of negative or positive outcome of situations is established fact.
7) Catastrophizing: Exaggerated importance of self's failures and others successes.
8) Emotional reasoning: One feels as though emotional state IS reality of situation.
9) Should" statements: Self imposed rules about behavior creating guilt at self inability to adhere and anger at others in their inability to conform to self's rules.
10) Labeling: Instead of understanding errors over generalization is applied.
11) Personalization: Thinking that the actions or statements of others are a reaction to you.
12) Entitlement: Believing that you deserve things you have not earned.
The real power of the above can be understood when it is realized that this "infiltration" is always by one group of another group. Individuals do not infiltrate discussion groups easily or effectively unless everyone thinks the infiltrator is absolutely trusted.
In the case of 9-11 cognitive infiltration, it appears that there was something far greater than just a few agents logging on to message boards and distorting discussion. In the case of 9-11 the extent of the distortion via infiltration has been conducted by a MAJOR PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATION. Message boards, information web sites, specific movements, videos, individual icons and organizations on the ground have been either created, produced or (mis) led by agents of one type or another.
There is a term somewhat understood is "disinformation". That would be the goal of "cognitive infiltration" through the methods of disrupting thinking and resultant action so completely that failure is constant and the group infiltrated concludes that the activity is a waste of time and impossible. By the use of fairly simple informational structures as tools for the group of infiltrators to use, we can see how constant failure of action could be created in a larger, unknowing group.
D) Misinformation
E) Useless information
F) Over information
It should be obvious to any informed person conducting accurate and comprehensive critical thinking that the internet was created as the "global village" with the usenet then converted to .com to appear as a commercial free-for-all (which it is) but also take advantage of a simple psychological fact or feature of the human mental capacity.
Human being have 2 brains. Only the left brain can conduct cognitive, rational reasoning. The right brain has most of our long term memory, autonomic function, emotional response structures cooperating with the limbic system. When you have a thought that makes you feel something, that is the limbic system working.
Here is the simple fact.
When people speak or listen to speech, the left brain is always involved to some degree. When reading or writing, the left brain might not be involved.
We read and write on the internet therefore we are more vulnerable to "cognitive distortions".
The identification of "cognitive infiltration" is quite simple once a person is aware of the above and a few simple, general parameters.
A dominate primary parameter is that no ground obscuring correct information ever be relinquished. Meaning real evidence cannot ever be recognized. Cognitive distortions 1 thru 12 are used to diminish the meaning of facts and evidence while showing false group preference of )D, E) and F). Another is that infiltrating agents always agree when opposing specific accurate information. Otherwise they disagree within F) and D) with others acting under B). Secondary is that a false pretense of social interaction be evident to reinforce C) the deception that the group of infiltrators are normal Americans using the internet. Another secondary parameter is that Constitutional principles and lawfulness by government be underplayed, but not overtly rejected.
When the above fails ridicule is the only tool left and to avoid compromising the group of infiltrators only a few infiltrators apply the ridicule and odd reinforcement is randomly applied by other agents of the infiltrating group.
Consider the black budget is fully large enough to conduct this and within cold war secrecy we would have no way of knowing such was true. Consider that two presidents have warned us of various aspects related to this thread and its purpose and they both were in office just prior to the construction of the World trade Center.
http://algoxy.com/psych/audio/military_eisenhower1_17_61.mp3
http://algoxy.com/psych/audio/jfk_secrecy.mp3
Another aspect is that those conducting "cognitive infiltration's" will never meaningfully take part in a discussion about "cognitive infiltration".
To demonstrate my absolute support for the US Constitution and every prior social contract carried by it and supporting it I will share with the viewer an element of natural law. It originates with the spiritual and philosophical understandings of Native American people who contributed significantly to the concepts the framers of the constitution incorporated into our social contract. This is something every America should know but does not. The reason for this is a union of church and state that disallowed this knowledge from being of the first words of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. Instead of these words about free speech we have freedom of religion.
The greater meaning of free speech comes from an understanding that might be found by practicing it. From the understanding can come; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love, protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
All right . . . who is really here for truth?
I have news for you, this has been happening for at least 6 years on the web, perhaps longer. My experience on message boards is perhaps more extensive than any other truth seeker. If we 9-11 truth seekers are "extremists", how do we detect infiltrators if they are present?
I've learned how this is done. It is actually something junior high school debate teams could achieve easily once the parameters are understood. Just like by the very nature of what the "cognitive infiltrators" have to work with is about on the same level.
I have had a huge advantage here because I actually know exactly, in general terms, how the Twin Towers were constructed. I viewed a 2 hour documentary in 1990 titled "The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers" that aired nationwide on PBS. I work in construction, have been a welder for 35 years and have also worked as a driller for a blaster on "above ground" blasting projects for road building. I almost attempted to gain the OJT needed to get my BATF blasting license, then decided construction was waning generally.
That advantage is having accurate information about the Twins that can be used to test a group with for infiltrators. My information is absolutely consistent with all evidence. Any one who is in construction knowing of steel and concrete can confirm this consistency.
The average truth seeker is at a major disadvantage because they do not know what is correct or not correct. If they know construction they can determine what is correct once they see it, but before that they do not know.
What I encountered was made a little more difficult because no one had come out and said, like Sunstein, that infiltration's were recommended. I had to determine by behaviors what constituted "cognitive" or exactly how the term was applied to a specific "infiltration". How it was carried out by whomever might be doing it, what it looked like.
Another aspect of the infiltration that was not readily obvious, but became so fairly quickly, was that the infiltration utilized social fears. These are the primary tools of the infiltrators.
A) Ridicule
B) False agreement
C) Social castigation
A more sophisticated and generically related tool is "cognitive distortions". Behavioral psychologists have a list of these that they use in defining when and where therapy needs to be applied to correct erroneous thinking in a patient. Erroneous thinking can, over periods of time, cause people to alienate themselves from others and interfere with the life experience significantly. Here is a list that has been slightly modified to more easily show how it can be applied by others in writing or speaking to distort your perceptions and thoughts.
1) All or nothing thinking: Things are placed in black or white categories.
2) Over generalization: Single event is viewed as continuous.
3) Mental filter: Details in life (positive or negative) are amplified in importance while opposite is rejected.
4) Minimizing: Perceiving one or opposite experiences (positive or negative) as absolute and maintaining singularity of belief to one or the other.
5) Mind reading: One absolutely concludes that others are reacting positively or negatively without investigating reality.
6) Fortune Telling: Based on previous 5 distortions, anticipation of negative or positive outcome of situations is established fact.
7) Catastrophizing: Exaggerated importance of self's failures and others successes.
8) Emotional reasoning: One feels as though emotional state IS reality of situation.
9) Should" statements: Self imposed rules about behavior creating guilt at self inability to adhere and anger at others in their inability to conform to self's rules.
10) Labeling: Instead of understanding errors over generalization is applied.
11) Personalization: Thinking that the actions or statements of others are a reaction to you.
12) Entitlement: Believing that you deserve things you have not earned.
The real power of the above can be understood when it is realized that this "infiltration" is always by one group of another group. Individuals do not infiltrate discussion groups easily or effectively unless everyone thinks the infiltrator is absolutely trusted.
In the case of 9-11 cognitive infiltration, it appears that there was something far greater than just a few agents logging on to message boards and distorting discussion. In the case of 9-11 the extent of the distortion via infiltration has been conducted by a MAJOR PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATION. Message boards, information web sites, specific movements, videos, individual icons and organizations on the ground have been either created, produced or (mis) led by agents of one type or another.
There is a term somewhat understood is "disinformation". That would be the goal of "cognitive infiltration" through the methods of disrupting thinking and resultant action so completely that failure is constant and the group infiltrated concludes that the activity is a waste of time and impossible. By the use of fairly simple informational structures as tools for the group of infiltrators to use, we can see how constant failure of action could be created in a larger, unknowing group.
D) Misinformation
E) Useless information
F) Over information
It should be obvious to any informed person conducting accurate and comprehensive critical thinking that the internet was created as the "global village" with the usenet then converted to .com to appear as a commercial free-for-all (which it is) but also take advantage of a simple psychological fact or feature of the human mental capacity.
Human being have 2 brains. Only the left brain can conduct cognitive, rational reasoning. The right brain has most of our long term memory, autonomic function, emotional response structures cooperating with the limbic system. When you have a thought that makes you feel something, that is the limbic system working.
Here is the simple fact.
When people speak or listen to speech, the left brain is always involved to some degree. When reading or writing, the left brain might not be involved.
We read and write on the internet therefore we are more vulnerable to "cognitive distortions".
The identification of "cognitive infiltration" is quite simple once a person is aware of the above and a few simple, general parameters.
A dominate primary parameter is that no ground obscuring correct information ever be relinquished. Meaning real evidence cannot ever be recognized. Cognitive distortions 1 thru 12 are used to diminish the meaning of facts and evidence while showing false group preference of )D, E) and F). Another is that infiltrating agents always agree when opposing specific accurate information. Otherwise they disagree within F) and D) with others acting under B). Secondary is that a false pretense of social interaction be evident to reinforce C) the deception that the group of infiltrators are normal Americans using the internet. Another secondary parameter is that Constitutional principles and lawfulness by government be underplayed, but not overtly rejected.
When the above fails ridicule is the only tool left and to avoid compromising the group of infiltrators only a few infiltrators apply the ridicule and odd reinforcement is randomly applied by other agents of the infiltrating group.
Consider the black budget is fully large enough to conduct this and within cold war secrecy we would have no way of knowing such was true. Consider that two presidents have warned us of various aspects related to this thread and its purpose and they both were in office just prior to the construction of the World trade Center.
http://algoxy.com/psych/audio/military_eisenhower1_17_61.mp3
http://algoxy.com/psych/audio/jfk_secrecy.mp3
Another aspect is that those conducting "cognitive infiltration's" will never meaningfully take part in a discussion about "cognitive infiltration".
To demonstrate my absolute support for the US Constitution and every prior social contract carried by it and supporting it I will share with the viewer an element of natural law. It originates with the spiritual and philosophical understandings of Native American people who contributed significantly to the concepts the framers of the constitution incorporated into our social contract. This is something every America should know but does not. The reason for this is a union of church and state that disallowed this knowledge from being of the first words of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. Instead of these words about free speech we have freedom of religion.
The greater meaning of free speech comes from an understanding that might be found by practicing it. From the understanding can come; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love, protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
All right . . . who is really here for truth?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Marklar on
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Conservation of momentum exists. Yes, or no?
Can a building fall through steel beams OR concrete at freefall speeds just as if there were only air in the way? Yes or no?
Christopher A. Brown said:
TheLasersShadow said:"If we 9-11 truth seekers are "extremists", how do we detect infiltrators if they are present?"
You detect them by their tactics and words, just like the No plane infiltrators years ago we now have YOU the concrete core infiltrator. Just like we routed them we will route you. Find a new tactic and come back as another screen name as you guys always do. I could be wrong you might not be an "infiltrator" but just someone who's naive and has no concept of Physics architecture or controlled demolition. Which in that case please do some research and come back then and debate us on what ever else we're 'confused' about.
No, won't happen.
Only evidence and reason will work and you haven't got either. I do not return under other usernames. I am not a disinfo and they do that bigtime. I use truth, evidence and reason to expose infiltrators attempting disinfo.
Some people are so decieved and so taken in by the social scene they cannot concieve that one person could have it right and so many have it wrong. Well, there has been a huge effort put out to deceive the truth movement, so if you are capable of useing evidence and reason, you can stop being used by the infiltrators to block the truth.
First clue. Notice not one person has even tried to post an image of the core FEMA (misre)presents to NIST and that truthers like r. gage accept without question. He refuses to justify his belief in the official information about the core structure. I've asked him publically and he lied, saying he has it and would send it to me. Never did.
Logic. IF there were steel core columns in the core area that looked like this.
Then there would be images from 9-11 that showed that structural core.
I know they didn't exist and post this image of the cast, tubular, rectangular concrete core that did exist of WTC 2 on 9-11.
I also will post a link to an archived article where L.E. Robertson the engineer of record for the Twins describes a concrete core in the days following 9-11.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040807085840/http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3...
Okay, your turn for evidence and reason.''
ON EDIT:
BTW, I trashed the no planers by using simple reason. Here it is.
Why would the perpetrators compromise their ruse so seriously by making people think that WTC 1 was hit first by a plane then demo WTC 2 first?
no plane theory depends on remote control over planes or demolitions. Obviously if planes were flown remotely operators were well trained and controlled. If they were not and the wrong tower was hit first, then demolitions were remotely controlled and a reversed impact sequence can be compensated for. It wasn't. The event had a backwards impact/fall sequence.
The cognitive infiltrations go back to 2003 at september11th.org as far as I can tell, where posters were downplaying the reversed impact/fall sequence.
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Permalink Reply by Christopher A. Brown on
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Marklar said:Conservation of momentum exists. Yes, or no?
Can a building fall through steel beams OR concrete at freefall speeds just as if there were only air in the way? Yes or no?
No it cannot. Concrete can be instantly fractured by a properly placed high explosives and steel cannot.
The infiltrators of the US government had to misrepresent the concrete core as steel because people would be looking for big pieces of concrete if they knew there was a concrete core. There was none, the concrete was turned into sand and gravel.
The Twin Towers were built to demolish. They were precision engineered concrete containers of high explosives in the shape of architectural elements.
The red lines are a valley in the wave of blast debris formed by the perpendicular planes of the core walls detonating. The particulate moving directly away from the planes of the walls at high speed forms the valley and the ridge indicated by the yellow lines as it moves outwards.
Also, if the public generally knew they were concrete, the "fire collapse" story would not work because concrete does not bend with heat.
I explain with complete feasibility exactly how these phenomena were created.
free fall
total pulverization
superfine, heated particulate
smooth, square cut column ends x the 1,000's
heavy steel assemblies heaved hundreds of feet
http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11fivephenomena.html
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KLC said:who are you? I have never seen you here before???
Correct, I've been a member for 3 days now. My name is Christopher A. Brown and I live in Santa Barbara California.
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Greg said:Please don't make a assessment of 12160 based on what you witnessed in Chatango, it is not part of 12160, it's only a link.
I can manage that, as long as there are reasonable people using evidence as well as they might. So far everyone supports the official information of FEMA and no one has provided any evidence from 9-11 that there were steel core columns in the core of the twins.
I've seen massive misleadership of the 9-11 truth movement that prefers nonsense like "nano thermite" over a simple strucutral issue that invailidates the cause of death on 3,000 death certificates. This fact can start a chain of new analysis and investigations but gage and NYCCAN leader Ted Walters refuse to discuss it. They believe FEMA.
BTW, get outside the truth movement to someone who believes the official story who also knows structural engineering. Two in 5 might know the Twins had a concrete tubular core. It is actually common knowledge outside of the truth movement. I've found almost 2 dozen without even looking in 5 years. As soon as they learn that FEMA misrepresents the core structure as badly as they do they go white and fearfully shut up.
The reason the misleaders of the truth movement refuse to discuss this is that they are trying to avoid any information getting out to the rest of America about the FEMA deception because lots of people know the Twins had a concrete core.
Imagine how I feel knowing exactly how 3,000 innocent people were murdered, the constituton compromised, war on 2 soveriegn nations waged (a million killed there?), the economy destroyed and the leaders of the truth movement refuse to use evidence or even allow it in the social groups they create.
Does this justify using screen shots exposing cognitive infiltrations?
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Permalink Reply by TheLasersShadow on
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They used damn explosives Chris, ever heard of a cutter charge? If they had not used cutter charges there WOULD have been NO collapse in the first place but in the impossible situation there would be a partial collapse. You would see those steel columns sticking straight up and crooked.
"Then there would be images from 9-11 that showed that structural core." - "Logic. IF there were steel core columns in the core area that looked like this." Are you saying there was some conspiracy where there where no steel columns in the building? I'm sorry your wrong, I'm not going to compile a list of evidence to support this, I'm not going to waste my life's time.
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TheLasersShadow said:They used damn explosives Chris, ever heard of a cutter charge? If they had not used cutter charges there WOULD have been NO collapse in the first place but in the impossible situation there would be a partial collapse. You would see those steel columns sticking straight up and crooked.
Ever hear of reading? I said the towers were "Precision engineered concrete containers for high explosives". If you had been reading my site which is linked numerous times you would have seen the custom cutter charges that were designed into the floors that cut the interior box columns, the only full length columns in the towers, not in the core.
http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11demolitionexplained.html#anchor1233383
TheLasersShadow said:"Then there would be images from 9-11 that showed that structural core." - "Logic. IF there were steel core columns in the core area that looked like this." Are you saying there was some conspiracy where there where no steel columns in the building? I'm sorry your wrong, I'm not going to compile a list of evidence to support this, I'm not going to waste my life's time.
There were 24 massive steel box columns that surrounded the concrete core walls. The spire was one of them at the NW corner of WTC 1. I have a page dedicated to locating them.
http://algoxy.com/conc/wtc1_spire_location.html
No list. Find ONE image from 9-11 that shows core columns in the core area. In 7 years NO ONE has ever posted one. the steel core columns did not exist. What was in the core was 'elevator guide rail support steel". the presence of butt plates joining the support steel shows that steel in the core was structurally too weak to be core columns.
Sorry you were decieved. The truth for the future requires you get over it soon.
ON EDIT:
BTW, your pics of the interior box column behind the fireman is not a thermite cut. It is a salvage cut made by an oxygen lance. I have an entire page dedicated to explaining it.
http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11disinfo-rense.html
Not that there was not TONS of thermite used in the basement to cut the interio box columns and bases of the perimeter columns. Here is a fact I've figured out.
The bombing of the WTC 1 basement was to create a need for a secret remodel and install the thermite over the columns faces surrounding the core and the bases of th perimeter walls. That feature of "built to demolish" was an oversight.
With WTC 2 the thermite was built in during construction.
All of the high explosive was encapsulated in concrete and sealed off from oxidization and evaporation which are the only things that will cause deterioration and failure to detonate.
The other pic shows a demolition tool called a "thermite jig" thermite is liquid when burning and the jig has a replaceable porcelein interior. There was on space in the core IF there were core columns in there to cut with thermite in jigs. There was no space for high explosives inthe quantities needed to cut tempered steel inside the core If there were steel core columns. There were no steel core columns in the core.
Do you know how much explosive it takes to cut dense steel? Do you know how load and shard uncontained high explosive blasts are? Do the math. There were 47 steel core columns supposedly. most of the steel at GZ was about 40 foot in length. That is over 1,300 cuts of heavy steel with high explosives.
Remember what I said about uncontained explosive blasts and listen to this video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5860825099435530591&q=...
Those are perfectly contained blasts. Muffled because they are moving thousands of tons of concrete particualate on particle at a time with the high pressure gasses leaking out and slowing.
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I'm not sure why your arguing this? How is this going to help anything?
Explosives are all thats needed to be proved in order to start a new investigation.
Why are you on such a crusade to prove this i see you making the same argument all over the net? http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/ar/t11658.htm
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Then you admit your theory is mostly irrelevant, as I said, because no other proof is necessary and turning my statements in a chat room into a major issue is just plain douchebaggery.
Christopher A. Brown said:
Marklar said:Conservation of momentum exists. Yes, or no?
Can a building fall through steel beams OR concrete at freefall speeds just as if there were only air in the way? Yes or no?
No it cannot. Concrete can be instantly fractured by a properly placed high explosives and steel cannot.
The infiltrators of the US government had to misrepresent the concrete core as steel because people would be looking for big pieces of concrete if they knew there was a concrete core. There was none, the concrete was turned into sand and gravel.
The Twin Towers were built to demolish. They were precision engineered concrete containers of high explosives in the shape of architectural elements.
The red lines are a valley in the wave of blast debris formed by the perpendicular planes of the core walls detonating. The particulate moving directly away from the planes of the walls at high speed forms the valley and the ridge indicated by the yellow lines as it moves outwards.
Also, if the public generally knew they were concrete, the "fire collapse" story would not work because concrete does not bend with heat.
I explain with complete feasibility exactly how these phenomena were created.
free fall
total pulverization
superfine, heated particulate
smooth, square cut column ends x the 1,000's
heavy steel assemblies heaved hundreds of feet
http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11fivephenomena.html
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TheLasersShadow said:I'm not sure why your arguing this? How is this going to help anything?
Explosives are all thats needed to be proved in order to start a new investigation.
Why are you on such a crusade to prove this i see you making the same argument all over the net? http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/ar/t11658.htm
Are you saying you can officially prove explosives were used?
Hasn't it been obvious since 9-11 that tons of thermite were used in the basement? That didn't make a real investigation.
The issue of the FEMA deception,
http://algoxy.com/conc/fema_deception.html
proves due process is not provided in mass murder. The analysis of collapse cannot be correct if the actual design, in detail, is not used forensically.
You are showing us that searching my activism is more important than proving FEMA right, or wrong.
At loose change I would post, "You believe official information if you believe there were steel core columns."
They would answer, "No, we don't believe official information."
I would post images of the concrete core and the statment of the engineer of record identifying a concrete core and say, "The Twins had a concrete core."
they would say, "No concrete core, there were steel core columns".
I would say, "If you think there were steel core columns, then show an image of the supposed steel core columns in the core area on 9-11." Perhaps I would post some images of the empty core and say, "The core is empty on 9-11".
They would post some construction photos and say, "The core was steel core columns".
I would post the NYCLU page showing that guliani took the WTC documents with 6,000 photo files and 15,000 videos. I work in civil engineering and ALL civic center documents have ALL plans for ALL building and ALL utilitites. That is the idea of "civic center". In an emergency at the civic center the needed info is no where near the hazard of emergency if needed. The article originally identified the plans as part when it was on the NYCLU site. I've called the NYC department of buildings and they say they have the plans and will only release them on a court order, saying "They are very sensitive buildings."
I say, "They are gone".
They say, "No matter".
Back to loose change (LC).
I say, "If you believe there were steel core columns then you believe official information". Then I'm banned for 3 days.
This happened about 5 times at least, no one ever produced an image of the steel core columns in the core area on 9-11.
Later at pilots for 9-11 truth I ran across a moderators definition of disinfo. He was the same mod that banned me at LC. Painter. I copied and pasted his definition of disinfo, which was a very good definition basically. Very rational writing too.
Then I began to post about the concrete core wherever "steel core columns" came up of the core info was applicable. I had already been banned once there I think. Each time painter would try to dismiss the concrete core I would weave his own words defining disinfo into rebuttal to his criticism. This went on for a time, then he posted a public apology. Here it is.
Dear Christopher A Brown, AKA Christophera,
I want to publicly apologize for a variety of slights, insults and injuries against you and your research that have accumulated over a long period of years. 1. A complete inability on my part to grasp the significance of your WTC concrete core hypotheses and the evidence you provided for it dating back to the 9/11 forum at Democratic Underground and elsewhere. 2. The development within myself of a prejudice toward you and the information you presented as being disinformation that, at best, had little significant grounds for genuine consideration. 3. The carrying of this prejudice into my role as an Administrator of the Loose Change Forum where I banned you in October 2006. 4. The further threat of banning you from the Pilots for 9/11 Truth Forum based on this long established prejudice as expressed in this thread and this one. I hope that you will accept my sincere apology. I've spent much of the day reading through information on your web site: http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html where I have watched your two videos and listened to a good portion of your 2007 interview with Fintan Dunne, which I make available to the members of this forum below:
Then there was a later message based on a personal message to me that I asked him if it was okay for me to post publically. He edited it and did it himself.
Chris, I have eliminated your warn-level tics. I've also sent you a lengthy PM. I want to share a little of that PM publicly here because I think it is relevant to continued discussion. I've bolded and emphasized the parts that most interest and concern me:
(painter) Yes, I saw the email from Gage to M*** on your page and the email from Gage to you linked from your forum. First of all, I have to say that my acceptance of your evidence regarding a concrete core has been somewhat emotionally difficult for me. Not only accepting that I could be wrong about something as important and fundamental as this (what, me, mistaken?!) but also trying to deal in my own head with the consequences of the error in the bigger picture of the movement itself.
You might not appreciate the comparison but it is just about at the same level as if I were to suddenly realize that Killtown or Haupt and the no-planers are right. ACK!! It has actually kind of shaken me up so that in a way it is difficult to know what I believe, whom to trust, how I feel about all this or what to think regarding what should happen next. So far as Gage's email to M***, I'm willing to accept it at face value, a statement of opinion based on a cursory examination of your presentation with prejudice similar to my own. Although one would logically presume that Gage would read and follow everything you posted to the forum, that might not necessarily be the case. Who knows. You and I [may] take to the 'forum' medium quite easily. I know plenty of folks who don't and it is conceivable that Gage is one of them.
I, too, have seen the photographs he is referring to which seem to verify the steel column core. The difference, of course, is that I'm not an architect or an engineer; I don't really know what I'm looking at except very superficially. There are still some images you've posted that I can't "see" the way you do, even with a description. This shouldn't be the case with Gage. But, then again, even with Gage's background, he didn't begin to question the events of 9/11 straight away. I'm willing to assume that he wasn't someone (like myself) who had already begun to think about the role counter-intelligence plays in our social perceptions of what is "real" on broad scale. I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt, that he is simply and honestly stating his opinion. The photographs seemed to corroborate the steel core blue prints.
So far as the conversation with M****** and Gage's email, it is unfortunate that you used the word "board" rather than "forum". This could be a simple, verbal misunderstanding coupled with prejudice or at least the apprehension (subliminal or conscious) that the concrete core hypothesis is a ) not sufficiently substantiated or documented in the public domain to be convincing, b ) marginally relevant given other factors (e.g., WTC7), c ) potentially divisive within the truth community (flying in the face of conventional perception) and d ) adds a whole other level of complexity in terms of the grasp of events. That is, in order to accept the concrete core hypothesis, one has to also accept that not only were the towers demolished, they were likely rigged for demolition during construction and, moreover, a body of evidence once in the public domain was removed clandestinely, not to mention that the blue prints we have been given (which, in themselves, still don't make the "collapse" hypothesis possible) are false and have been altered.
It makes my head swim just thinking about it and I knew 9/11 wasn't what we were being told from the moment I heard about it. In fact, I'd been anticipating something like it. I appreciate the vote of confidence several have given me in this thread for my apology. I want to say, however, that although I'm willing to give interest and credit to the evidence Chris is providing, I'm still not quite ready to embrace the full theory.
There are many unanswered questions and problems that need to be discussed. I do agree now that the evidence for a steel core as described in the blue prints is slight -- that part of the real question is, WHY were the blueprints withheld not only from the public but, as I understand it, initially from the engineers first tasked with the question of what had happened at the WTC? How can we be certain, given what we know from the alleged Flt 77 FDR (for example) that these blueprints are the actual diagrams of what was built -- especially in light of other evidence Chris has so diligently and persistently provided. Then there is the whole 'pre wired for demolition' hypothesis which has to be discussed and, if possible, verified.
Like others have expressed, early on I wondered out loud and in forums whether such a scuttling feature might be built into a sky-scraper of such proportions. Lord knows that if for some reason it was thought that the thing might topple sideways, there would be need for some method to bring it down least the consequence be even more devastating to a large segment of lower Manhattan. However, as is so easily done, I was persuaded by some that this was highly unlikely and that, in any case, the explosives would likely loose potency over time. Moreover, just because something might be feasibly or technically possible doesn't mean that it happened or, even if it did, that it can be substantially proven by available evidence.
That is the problem with the whole concrete core hypothesis. Not that there isn't any evidence for it but that, at least at present, is NOT widely accepted and what evidence there is seems so 'relative' to the substantial steel-core documentation that it is easily dismissed, even if true. This has been a question all along -- regardless of the truth of the matter, does the adoption of a concrete core make it easier or more difficult for people to wrap their heads around 9/11 as a false-flag operation? If it can not be clearly and easily established to such a degree that even members of the truth community, such as members of ae911t, can embrace it as, at the very least, an alternative possibility worthy of consideration, then I have no idea where to go with this.
Mind boggled: painter
Here is the page, http://algoxy.com/psych/painters.understanding.html
Here is the page on LC, http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11_loose-change.html
TheLasersShadow, question for you.
How do you think Americans would react if it came out on the evening news that NIST did not have the building plans for their analysis because guliani had taken them in a violation of law? And that it turns out NIST had been deceived by FEMA into analyzing towers with steel core columns when the towers actually had a concrete core?
Answer that question and you will have answered your own question.
TheLasersShadow said:I'm not sure why your arguing this? How is this going to help anything?
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Marklar said:Then you admit your theory is mostly irrelevant, as I said, because no other proof is necessary and turning my statements in a chat room into a major issue is just plain douchebaggery.
9-11 is a major issue, I don't have to do anything. If you cannot use evidence and reason while rejecting what can resolve the major issue just because the group has been decieved and you are a part of it, it is not my problem no matter badly you wish to make it so.
Wait for TheLasersShadow's answer.
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Looking for accountability here. TheLasersShadow, question for you.
How do you think Americans would react if it came out on the evening news that NIST did not have the building plans for their forensic analysis because guliani had taken them in a violation of law? And that it turns out NIST had been deceived by FEMA into analyzing towers with steel core columns when the towers actually had a concrete core?
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My answer, I honestly don't believe your correct that the steel was left out of the core columns. That being said, there is so much that can very easily be proven to the masses that going down this road is not needed. Whether the cores were made of taffy or bubblegum physics still apply and free fall is impossible without the use of explosives. The legal issues you bring up might in time be useful if it can ever be proven conclusively in a court of law. Really the focus right now in this movement needs to be waking others up and preparing for the possibility of extreme depression and martial law in whatever form it come (riots, civil uprising). Normally people on forums like these present information and let it lay, the members pick it over and move on. You seem to as i said before to be on a crusade to bring this information forward, even if you could prove this point of view to me and others the MSM and courts would ignore you just the same as they do any argument. This is a waste of time, this is my last response on the issue. Thanks -TLS
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